Interview: Ordinary Elephant’s Translytic Songwriting Process, Industry Insights, and Touring Experiences

Afterglow chatted with the folk-duo Ordinary Elephant, discussing the group’s delicate harmonization, unique writing processes, and rooted instrumentation on its latest self-titled album, Ordinary Elephant.

Written by Rachel Joy Thomas

Known both for their appearances at the Kerrville Folk Festival and as winners of multitudes of songwriting accolades, Ordinary Elephant has made waves in the music industry through their intricate weave of songwriting. The group’s newest self-titled album features a notable strip-back on layers of folksy instrumentation to instead focus on simplicity: The duo’s artistic triumph lies in rootsy banjo playing, perfectionist harmonies, and spellbinding sounds.

Afterglow sat down with the pair to discuss their newest self-titled album, as well as their experience settling into a tour routine.

Can you tell me a bit about yourselves and your [musical] background?

Crystal Damore: I didn't grow up in a very musical family. They love music, but they're not very musical, and I did. I took piano lessons and played flute in the band and little things like that. But it wasn't a big thing, [not] a huge part of what I did. For me, writing has always been the thread that got me to where I am; That was just how I felt comfortable communicating as a very quiet, shy kid. I guess right after high school was when I got a guitar too. Shortly before that was when I kind of just came on the scene and that was for me a turning point of realization — “Oh, hey, you can say things with songs” — and [that] made me realize that I wanted [the things] I was writing to be songs. It kind of went from there where getting a musical instrument was a vehicle for songwriting. And it's kind of been that path. Whereas Pete was kind of opposite.

Pete Damore: Right. I came at it from the other side of songs in that I was always … I guess my first musical love was the Beatles and I discovered them in middle school right when I was starting to play guitar and taking some lessons, and it went on from there. [I was] always really attracted to harmony and rhythm: I eventually found acoustic music and bluegrass and that whole world. [I] got a banjo in 2011 after hearing the last Gilian Welch record that came out, there's a song on there called “Hard Times.” It just floored me when I first heard it. I ordered a banjo right away. And then the banjo is really what brought us together musically. We were together. Were we married? We were not married yet, but we were together. And then when I got the banjo, something clicked. But with the songs that Crystal was writing, almost anything I played on the banjo felt right. It was really a blessing to find that combination, and then we started playing together. We lived on the road for five years and in an RV full time. We weren't doing music full time then but it allowed us to slowly wade into the waters of being musicians, and play music without putting too much on it to sustain us or anything, so we were very fortunate in that area.

I read that y'all met originally at an open mic, singer-songwriter event in a venue. Can y'all tell me a little bit more about that?

Pete Damore: Yeah, so you had to play at least two originals to play a cover. I think it was usually three songs each. We both went to that open mic for the first time in 2009. We both became regulars and friends and there was a really cool little group of us. We loved being friends with everyone there; the guy that ran it and my roommate Grant would give songwriting prompts every couple weeks, [like] “write a song with this chord progression.”

Crystal Damore: It kind of turned into more than just your typical open mic. It became this little community. It being the songwriter's open mic really made it [that].The people that kept coming [were] the people that you wanted to have a little [community with].

Pete Damore: Yeah, and the other cool thing about the open mic is that Chris, the guy that ran it, set up a single mic on stage, it was like a condenser mic. So it picked up the whole stage and there were no monitors. So you would just walk up there, no plug in or anything, and you'd just sing your song.

Crystal Damore: It was also unusual for an open mic. We now use those sorts of mics to perform, and we didn’t always [use those mics]. Like, when we went away from there and started playing shows, we went to the typical dynamic mics and plugged in instruments. But then we found our way back to using those condenser mics. I don't know if that is part of why that feels so comfortable to [use them]. Maybe in hindsight, that was part of it — that familiarity.

Yeah, definitely. I can see how that original experience and being part of a community that fostered you would create a comfortable background. And that might be why you explore it a little bit more on your self-titled album. But back into your origins, you were on the road for five years and with an almost part-time position in songwriting and music. When did y'all originally decide to go fully into the music industry?

Pete Damore: We had inklings starting in 2014 when Crystal left her job. Then a couple years later things were going well and I went down to part time, or half-time I'm pretty sure, and that happened, [so] 2017 ended up being a big year for us. We got to a lot of songwriting contests, like the Kerrville Folk Festival [and the] New Folk Contest, which was kind of a dream for us. In 2018, we [were] honored by this organization called Folk Alliance. That was a really big deal. We didn't apply for that or anything. It felt like a now or never thing after that. All signs are pointing toward, “you need to put more time into this music thing in order to give it a chance.” It kind of felt like, why not now?

Crystal Damore: Yeah, it just felt like we were being encouraged by our peers in an unexpected way. It felt like an “if not now, when” sort of thing, and so we were like [we] gotta try it. We can always go back and we haven’t yet.

So y'all have both been outside of your original careers for some time now. Crystal, I believe you were originally a veterinarian, and Pete, I think you were originally a programmer. What's been the biggest transition since you've shifted away from those day jobs?

Pete Damore: For me, I think it's just a time management thing. Being self-employed and running your own business is a lot more work than going into a nine to five tech job. Where I work[ed], they were super cool about work-life balance, so anytime I was not working, I was free to do whatever I needed. I wasn't on call or anything like Crystal. Now being a musician, it's a lot more work because you can always do more. It’s hard to draw those lines and set boundaries, especially when it's mostly something you love to do. So, making sure that we keep practicing and improving at our instruments, songwriting, and the business side of things is a lot of work. So that's been the biggest change for me. I mean, I love the freedom of it, too. We were on tour for a few weeks and then we're back home, so we do have the freedom to kind of [take off]. [Or, for example,] Crystal's mom's having surgery next week. When you're employed [and] working for someone, that's a little bit more of a hassle to be able to take time off [for those things].

Crystal Damore: I feel very similar, but the whole time management thing. For me, there was not a good work-life balance before and so it just fed into this new area where it’s very hard to win it when your work is your life. Those lines get really blurred with a creative kind of job, it feels like. It's hard to figure out how to manage your time and still feel like you can relax and not feel guilty, and those are all things we're still working out.

I guess that gets into a follow up question. What are some ways that y'all are working on making more of a work life balance style now that you've catapulted into [the music] industry?

Crystal Damore: Yeah, I think trying to remember to prioritize the [right] things, like songwriting and practicing your instrument and trying to get better at your craft and these creative pursuits that allow us to even do this job. It's so easy to put those on the back burner because we actually enjoy them, and it feels like, “Oh, that's a luxury, a thing [that] you gotta do all the work first to be able to get that thing as a reward.” Trying to remember to prioritize them [is difficult] as that actually is work too and that needs to be put in there. And so [we] try it when we're home. When we're touring, it's just a really fast pace and there's a lot of driving. It's hard to get into a routine with that. But when we're home, we're trying to be better about getting into routines that allow us to put time toward that. Also feeding into that: right before the pandemic, we were living on the road full time, and so the way we toured was very different because we were always in a van/travel trailer kind of situation. We would have the travel trailer somewhere for a few weeks or a month at a time and go out in the van on little runs from there and just keep moving around, so we were always perpetually moving. It didn't feel like we needed to group our touring and shows together as much because we were just always moving, but in this way, we're like, “Hey, we're home for a bit and we leave for a bit.” It's just a different way of doing it and we switch[ed] to that right before the pandemic, and then that dramatically changes things, so it feels like we're just recently getting a feel for that quote unquote normal way of touring. We're trying to figure out what makes sense for the amount of time gone versus being home. [We’re] trying to better divide that. So that we're home for enough time that it feels like we can have more of a work life balance.

Pete Damore: But, [we] also [will] be on the road enough to make money.

Crystal Damore: Yeah, because that's the way musicians make money now, is being on the road. That's the main source of income.

I suppose routine setting has been something that y'all have been developing over time. I heard that you both have a writing routine that you do every morning. And I wanted to ask about that optic writing. Does that flow of consciousness ever spark any song [ideas] or poetry that ends up in [your work]? I know you have a poetry book and you also have the recent album.

Crystal Damore: Yeah, definitely. A lot of [the poetry] is just straight from there. Those writing exercises will often turn into the things that are in that book. [These] are things that started as that writing exercise and have gotten more developed from there. So, that's a huge part of the poetry process, for sure. It does influence songs too, [but] not to as big of a degree. I think it will [influence] like, little phrases. Lines will maybe get pulled from that writing, or it'll just give us ideas conceptually about something we've been working on. It'll make us go in a particular direction because of something that came about during that writing. It's like any muscle, writing is. You practice it, and you exercise that muscle and it gets stronger. And so just the act of writing, even if it's not something that turns into anything, it just stays in that place. Writing [in] an exercise notebook. Having done it, you know on some level it does influence everything else you do.

Pete Damore: And you have to always remind yourself that it's worth the time. Even if it doesn't turn into something.

Crystal Damore: Because so often it doesn't. It's this thing and it's going to live on this page in this notebook and never do anything else. That's okay and actually really good to get. It helps you find your voice by getting all that stuff out.

I've listened to your self titled album, as well as a lot of the other work. “Joy Has Not Forgotten Me” [is] a highlight of the album [for me], and I'm sure it is for many other people who are listening. You have some really great picture painting on lyrics, like, “This gravel road crackles like static in the air.” Crystal, I know you're usually the lyricist, and I wanted to ask if those lyrics came from one of these writing routines, or how you came up with these sort of mental images.

Crystal Damore: Yeah, actually, it came from a different writing exercise thing that we do. It came from something called the translytic process. It's basically where you start with a piece of poetry in a foreign language. So just like some language that you don't know, that you can't read, you don't know what it means. And so the first step is you translate, you write a first draft where you quote translate it, but you're not trying to write what you think the words mean. It's a very stream of consciousness, like float word association, whatever the words look like, or you think they might sound like, whatever that makes you think of, you write it down.

Crystal Damore: And it is complete, like gobbledygook [at first]. The first draft doesn't mean anything, you know, it's just these random words all smashed together. And so you put away the first thing, and then you rewrite that first draft into a second draft doing the same thing. But now they're words that you know what they mean and so it adds this other layer of it but you still try to do that stream of consciousness thing for the first several drafts and then it starts coming together in a way. It sparks something in your brain, and there's this thread and you're like, “Oh, that's what I'm writing about,” but you get these cool images and metaphors and things. You’re like, “How would I [be] writing this thing.” It's a very playful way to write, and I'm not good at being playful. I need to be better at that in my life. I tend to think I don’t have time to be silly. I gotta do this, I gotta do this thing straight ahead. For me, [it] let[s] me be playful: It just feels very free. It's very similar to object writing. It taps that same part of my brain where I feel very free and lets me come up with these random things that I then edit and work into how it feels. But that’s where the song originated from.

Crystal Damore: I stole Pete's banjo and wrote it on the banjo. I don't really play banjo, but I was like, “Oh, I'm going to just try [it].” When you pick up a new instrument, you don't know what you're doing. It lets you [have] a little bit more of a beginner's mind [and] play around, but [Pete] now plays the banjo on the record. That's not me playing the banjo on the record.

Pete, you weren't as much of a lyricist before you met Crystal as you explained before. You've described yourself more interested in the sound of a song rather than the lyrics. Crystal is kind of your match in that regard [because she’s] more interested in the lyrics than the sound. Have you contributed to the lyrics? Have you become more comfortable contributing to lyrics as time has gone on?

Pete: Yeah. We both really helped each other grow into these areas respectively. I do the writing exercise [with her] each morning, which has helped me a ton. It’s just my writing muscles were so puny. We met and have been [exploring] those playful avenues where there’s no pressure. Those avenues for writing have really helped me. We’ve done some writing retreats, and I’ve written a couple of songs that I have been playing live recently in the past couple of years. It feels cool to figure out ways to write. The translytic method that Crystal described is really fun for me to do just because I’m the type of person where I sit down and don’t have anything to talk about. I don’t have anything that I want to write about. I’m a pretty relaxed person and I [have a] go with the flow personality. I’m not necessarily someone that has a lot to say about any particular thing. That’s the cool thing with the translytic [process]. You don’t start with a blank page. It’s very encouraging from the beginning. It’s like, “Hey, I’ve got this whole structure to start.” You immediately have lines and lines to whittle down and mess with. It feels like you, but you’re not staring at the blank page. I think an aspect of that feels like Bananagrams. You have the responsibility and freedom to move the words around. [You are] racing against this other person, so I need to undo what I’ve done [when I’m playing it] and not be afraid of that. It’s backstepping in order to get to a better place. I feel that mindset plays into the translytic [process] for me especially. I didn’t think of this but we’re [also] in a group that writes together, and that [also] ends up [with you] racing a deadline.

Crystal Damore: Yeah, it’s been really cool to see him take that transition from when we first met. Right into lyrics and what he said, writing songs that we’ve played out that when he played them for the first time, I was just floored. Seeing him grow in that way and find a voice like that just has been really exciting for me as a lyricist.

Pete Damore: Well, [it’s the] same for you with music. It's been really cool to see you do all of that side of the songs and come up with really cool musical ideas and execute them.

Crystal Damore: We've both grown a lot.

Pete Damore: Yeah.

Crystal Damore: Pete grew up taking lessons and I was self-taught. I didn’t have the background, and then after we got together I appreciated how much the guitar can be a vehicle for songwriting. It can say a lot, too. I’ve been trying to backstep and learn what it is I am doing, how it is I am playing. [I am learning] how to speak better through the instrument, which is a very long road ahead of me. I think we talked about this before, and maybe it's come up in another interview we’ve done before, that we recognized both of those areas. You know, me with the lyrics and him with the music. We’ve both been very gentle with [one another] about them. Each of us is learning them. We aren’t judging or feeling, or making each other feel inadequate. We are still very much growing, so it feels like a safe space to grow and explore because we’re each other's teachers. It’s a huge thing when you’re trying to learn something.

Yeah, it sounds like you had so many growth avenues as you’ve mentioned. What has been your biggest growth area coming into this album [together], as well as touring more often?

Crystal Damore: I think something we’ve worked on the most in the past is the songwriting evolution. Looking back, you can see the trajectory of where these songs have [gone], but something that may not be as obvious is how much we’ve worked on singing this last record or leading up to the last record. Being able to perform live consistently to the point where it feels really comfortable. We’ve taken singing lessons that have been really helpful for playing those songs live and recording. We’ve been able to blend our singing together. Harmony, like you [Pete] can sing harmony and I can be singing the right notes, but it still won’t mesh if you’re not singing the vowel in the same way I do it, or saying the words in the exact same way at the exact same time. I really like getting on the same page with that and focusing. [We’re] blending our voices and what we’re saying.

Pete Damore: I agree. I guess singing has been another avenue [we’re] trying to get better at. And again, [we are] always learning. Not that we’re like the best or anything by any means, but it feels like that’s just a big [change]. We’re figuring out what things to even know, which I guess feels very similar to [it]. I got a guitar and I learned to play these shapes and chords, but I didn’t know what they were for a long time. I didn’t know what that meant. I hold my hand this way and that sounds like a G chord, but I didn’t know “I’m playing these notes, and that’s why it sounds like that.” [I didn’t know] the back theory of the strings. When singing, you do something, so, [when] you really start studying it a little more and learning to hold your breaths. You know you do certain things with your breath and you’ve got these muscles that you don’t even realize you have, and it’s such a mental game. Singing when you think about [different things]. [When] I sing like this, and I think about raising my eyebrow I get this pitch, right?

Crystal Damore: Our thing has been learning. Learning what we don’t know so that we can keep learning more.

For a final question: Y’all are somewhat late bloomers into the music industry. It reminds me of Mary Gauthier, who has given you advice. I really think you've hit it out of the park with your recent album, and I wanted to ask, what advice would you have for other musicians who are just starting out and don't really know where to start?

Crystal Damore: Yeah, It's hard. There's two art [forms]. There's the creative side and then the business side, and the business side feels like a big fiery mess right now. One big part of it is just from a zoomed out view. [You need to] realize and be able to accept how many hats you have to wear. There are so many things that go into that. You don’t think about it until you are doing it, and you’re like, I have to do that to make this happen. It’s a lot of things: Knowing what you’re good at and what you’re okay with. Hiring people to help you do things, and figuring out the balance of when it’s not worth your time to try to keep doing it yourself is [its] own thing.

Pete Damore: We just saw a songwriter named Caleb Elliot perform the other night, and he said, he was quoting someone else, but, “If you’re not having fun playing music, what are you doing here.” It’s easy, if you start playing music for a living, to get lost in the thread of why you started [it], so just keep that thread: If you’re not having fun playing music, what are you doing here? I think we could all use a reminder.

Crystal Damore: Fun can mean different things for different people. Just remember what you’re doing it for and keep that as the beacon of what you’re constantly striving to do overall. Try not to get lost in the weeds of it.

Pete Damore: I know a lot of our peers lament how much we have to use social media to promote shows, and other peers seem to handle that so much better. I think it just depends on who it is and when, but really tapping back into how lucky we are to get to do this for a living and approaching that work with joy and creativity is a constant battle. Figure out what feels genuine to you.

Crystal Damore: And maybe you have things you don’t want to do or things that [are difficult] How can you make it work for you? I feel like you still have that goal of [making] the art for the reason you’re doing the art.

This interview has minimally been edited for clarity.

You can follow Ordinary Elephant on Instagram and stream the group’s music on Apple Music and Spotify.

InterviewsAfterglow ATXOctober 11, 2024rachel joy thomas, songwriting, folk, singer-songwriter